"god" Is a Murderer of Children
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Subject: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by AliBaghdadi on Sunday, December 16th 2012 @ 8:18 AM

"god" Is a Murderer of Children

Huckabee Says Connecticut School Massacre Occurred Because We ‘Removed God From Our Schools’

Former Arkansas governor and GOP presidential candidate Mike Huckabee attributed today’s deadly massacre in an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut to the lack of God and religion in public schools.

Addressing the tragedy on Fox News, Huckabee dismissed calls for stricter gun control and claimed that future violence can be prevented by solving matters of “the heart” and turning to God:

HUCKABEE: Ultimately, you can take away every gun in America and somebody will use a bomb. When somebody has an intent to do incredible damage, they’re going to find a way to do it… People will want to pass new laws, but unless you change people’s hearts, they’re our transition to the pastor side. This is a heart issue, it’s not something, laws don’t change this kind of thing.

NEIL CAVUTO (HOST): You know, inevitably people ask after tragedies like this, how could God let this happen?

HUCKABEE: Well, you know, it’s an interesting thing. We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we’ve systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we’ve made it a place where we don’t want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability? That we’re not just going to have to be accountable to the police, if they catch us. But one day, we will stand before a Holy God in judgment. If we don’t believe that, then we don’t fear that.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Tuesday, December 18th 2012 @ 3:09 PM

This guy sounds like one sick puppy!

I don't understand why so many Americans can't see beyond their own borders? The rest of the world (excepting countries in crisis, such as South Africa) just doesn't deal with gun crime like this!

Pasted below is graphical data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics detailing the rate of homicides in this country relative to population.

The blue, red and green lines indicate the years when major laws were passed, restricting gun ownership. You will notice the corresponding decrease in firearm homicides that follow the introduction of the laws.

You can see the full size graph here if you like. The graph on firearm-related suicides is very similar.

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by James1980 on Tuesday, December 18th 2012 @ 3:31 PM

The graph you have posted is both accurate but misleading, Dave. The missing piece of information here which puts it into perspective is that the firearm homicide rate shown is analogous to the overall homicide rate. In other words, the graph merely shows the general homicide rate, regardless of the means used.

Some other graphs, also from the Australian Bureau of Statistics:


Rob Burgess
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by RobBurgess on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 3:20 AM

In Michigan in the early hours of the day just hours before the school shootings in Connecticut, a Republic legislature passed a pro-gun bill which allows gun owners to carry their guns in churches, schools, auditoriums, bars, stadiums, and just about anywhere else (except the state legislature, course.)

The bill is currently on the Republican Governor's desk for signature. He has a couple weeks to decide.

The day after the tragedy a fellow in neighboring Indiana was arrested with 47 guns (forty-seven!) in his home after he made threats to burn his wife in bed and then go shoot up the local school. The local police sherriff has since said the fellow was not "serious" just angered with his wife. But why ANYONE needs 47 guns unless they are a paranoid is beyond me.

As a U.S. Navy veteran, I am also a member of Veterans for Peace. I live in a state in which as a boy I took NRA firearm safety training. In the fall each year, hundreds of thousands of hunters in my state enjoy walking fields and woods hunting deer, rabbit, pheasant, and other game. While I have not hunted in decades, I appreciate and have respect for those who would hunt in the true spirit of sportsmanship. Many of whom also believe in conservation of our waters and wild areas.

However, that being said, there should be a limit to the number of guns and the type of guns one can own. No one has a right to own a gun which has more than 10 rounds in it chamber whether it be automatic or semi-automatic. Hunters do not need such guns to participate in their sport. And no one needs 47 or even a dozen guns.

Clergy from across the state are holding a prayer vigil outside the governor's office today asking him to NOT sign a bill that would expand an already liberal gun law in Michigan.

At this time, along with paying closer attention to the needs of those who are mentally ill in the United States, I believe that we need seriously to look at bipartisan legislation to reduce the number and type of guns possessed in this country and this state.

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 5:04 AM

Opinions, like rectums, are individual. I favor the elimination of "gun-free zones" in this country, as there will be a resulting reduction in the instances of mass shootings and/or the number of casualties will be less. A good friend is director of campus safety at a local college, carries a concealed weapon, and fears a Virginia Tech style shooting because nobody is supposed to be armed while on the premises. This place where we live is not Eden, so let's not wear rose-colored glasses, please.

Should one "carry" in church? I say yea in this day and time. If I happen to hear "Allah u-akhbar" while the rest of us are singing "Amazing Grace", I want the odd man taken out promptly. I feel that God will look favorably on the act of sparing lives by taking one. (I do not expect Dave to agree)

When I see a store with a sign on the door indicating that weapons are not welcome, I keep on walking. I know that anyone with evil intentions will not heed that sign, so that is a potentially unsafe place.

I am obviously not a Progressive: I am not saying that everyone should subscribe to my point of view. I am adamant that my point of view is just as salient as anyone else's.

I do not feel that it is anyone's business to know if I own a gun, how many, or what type, as long as they are legal (I have no interest in fully-automatic weapons now that I'm no longer in the military) and that I am law-abiding. This country needs no additional laws regulating firearms -- the ones on the books already are not enforced by a liberal judiciary.

This forum has a notably anti-Israeli slant, but they have a good idea on school security. Their teachers, also veterans, carry weapons. While it does not mean a terrorist cannot start trouble, it becomes likely that it will be terminated in short order.

As for me and my private life, I prefer to carry a weapon, because a police officer is too heavy. Police carry their gun for their own protection anyway, so I see it as my duty to my family to provide for thier security as best I can.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 10:11 AM

Quote from James1980 on Tuesday, December 18th 2012 @ 3:31 PM

The graph you have posted is both accurate but misleading, Dave. The missing piece of information here which puts it into perspective is that the firearm homicide rate shown is analogous to the overall homicide rate. In other words, the graph merely shows the general homicide rate, regardless of the means used.

I think the biggest problem with the graphs you've responded with is that they stop in 1995. Since then I believe there have been two major initiatives:

  1. 1997 - the National Agreement on Gun Laws (post Port Arthur)
  2. 2003 - the National Agreement on Hand-Gun Laws

As you'll see from the full size graphs on homicide and suicide, while there is significant decline in fire-arm-related deaths after amendments to the law in 1988, 1992 and 1993, the biggest decline happens after the introduction of the 1997 and 2003 restrictions.

http://guncontrol.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/1995-2006-1.png

http://guncontrol.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/1995-2006-2.png

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 10:31 AM

Quote from Cibby on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 5:04 AM

Should one "carry" in church? I say yea in this day and time. If I happen to hear "Allah u-akhbar" while the rest of us are singing "Amazing Grace", I want the odd man taken out promptly.

I think this highlights the problem, brother.

If you really do hear "Allāhu Akbar" (ie. "God is great") while you are singing Amazing Grace, it's most likely that one of the Arabic members of the congregation has simply lapsed into singing the hymn in his native tongue. I think it would be a shame to 'take him out' for that reason (unless his singing is really terrible). Wink

I believe that the statistics are quite stark - that more family members are accidentally killed by guns purchased to protect the family than actually protected.

Quote from Cibby on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 5:04 AM

This forum has a notably anti-Israeli slant, but they have a good idea on school security. Their teachers, also veterans, carry weapons. While it does not mean a terrorist cannot start trouble, it becomes likely that it will be terminated in short order.

I hope we don't have an anti-Israel slant here.

I am opposed to the Palestinian Occupation just as I was opposed to my own country's involvement in the Iraq invasion, as I am to our involvement in Afghanistan, but I don't think that makes me any more anti-Israel than I am anti-Australia. I don't want to see Israel destroyed. I just want to see the Palestinians given a chance to live normal human lives.

Having said that, I also have no objection to designated security personnel carrying weapons in hostile environments. My concern is when everybody is allowed to carry them and when there are minimal restrictions on what they can carry.

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 10:57 AM

The "God is Great" declaration often precedes a suicide attack, and in that instance (the scenario that I was thinking of) I advocate facilitating that person's readily finding his way to his heaven. Just trying to be helpful.

Here in SC a permit to carry a weapon requires a thorough background check as well as training on both the law and the handling of firearms. If nothing else, one finishes the course knowing that the day that you draw your weapon, your life will change.

The UK is now considering banning "long kitchen knives" because of a rash of knife murders. Again, blaming the tool used in the crime is counter-productive and just plain ignorant. Be it sword, gun, car, or A-bomb matters not -- there is a human behind it.

There are certainly stupid people who own weapons, and when they do not properly secure them and/or train their kids who are old enough, accidents will happen. But that's not the fault of the gun, so why not give an IQ test as a prerequisite for buying it? Their kids will have to be trained before they're turned loose with another deadly weapon -- an automobile.

In this country, if I wanted to eliminate many of the untimely deaths, I would go after the doctors. Far more people die of medical malpractice here than due to violent causes.


Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 2:59 PM

James Hannagan,

I have the same problem that Father Dave pointed out. Your graphs only go to 1995. Does anyone have a link to the same statistics since the enactment of the National Firearm Agreement in 1996? Some here in the states are saying that all other crime is way up in Australia since the enactment, but I haven't seen any sources nor have they provided any to support their stance.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 6:05 PM

The graphs pasted into my last post above go right through to 2005.

I do believe that all those emails that were circulated, suggesting that Australia has been experiencing a non-firearm-related crimewave since implementing the restrictions on gun ownership are just a desperate attempt to stave off the inevitable weight of truth. I believe they have all been written by Americans.

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by James1980 on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 6:52 PM

I have seen the stats that show other violent crime has indeed skyrocketed since the enactment of the firearm bans. It would make sense that they would. I don't keep the stats on hand, but they're not hard to find. Before John Howard's kneejerk firearm confiscations, there was virtually no blackmarket here in Australia. It's cheaper and easier to obtain illegal firearms now, but you won't find any official stats on that, so they're only of so much use. It's not as though people don't have enough historical evidence at their disposal to show that prohibition does not work.

The problem I see with Gun Control Australia's graph is that it is (intentionally?) misleading by portraying statistical anomolies as causative. Our close neighbour New Zealand also hasn't had any mass shootings for approximately the same time period as Australia. The difference is that New Zealand did not ban semi-automatic weapons when we did, which disproves the already illogical connection being offered.

  • In reaction to the Port Arthur shooting, Australia banned semi-automatic rifles and shotguns, and pump-action shotguns.
  • New Zealand still allows these types of firearms for the purposes of hunting and target shooting.
  • In Australia, all firearms must be registered.
  • New Zealand does not require registration of all firearms.
  • Despite their different gun laws, both countries have experienced comparable periods of time with no mass shootings.

WiSH (International Coalition for Women In Shooting & Hunting)


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 8:37 PM

Quote from Cibby on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 10:57 AM

The UK is now considering banning "long kitchen knives" because of a rash of knife murders. Again, blaming the tool used in the crime is counter-productive and just plain ignorant. Be it sword, gun, car, or A-bomb matters not -- there is a human behind it.

I can't imagine you really believe that.

Would you really suggest that bombs should be able to be owned and carried about by anybody and everybody?

I would think that if banning long kitchen knives reduces the number of knife murders then that's a good reason for banning them. Certainly I'm glad we're not all allowed to carry swords and bombs.

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 9:11 PM

Quote from James1980 on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 6:52 PM

Our close neighbour New Zealand also hasn't had any mass shootings for approximately the same time period as Australia. The difference is that New Zealand did not ban semi-automatic weapons when we did, which disproves the already illogical connection being offered.

Less guns = less deaths.

This might be incorrect but the connection is hardly 'illogical'.

As to New Zealand, it is true that the laws there are not as strict as in Australia, but they are far stricter than they are in the US, and gun ownership in New Zealand was tightened significantly after the Aramoana Massacre of 1990.

In New Zealand:

  • The 1983 Arms Act required that all gun-owners be licensed and that special weapons, such as pistols, be specially registered. Notably 'self-defense' was dissallowed as a sufficient reason for pistol owership.

  • The 1992 (post Aramoana Massacre) Amendments added restrictions on the types of guns that could be owned and also made it more difficult to get a firearms license.
________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 2:24 AM

James Hannagan, the stats have been hard to find. I have been searching numerous databases, including but not limited to the Australia Bureau of Statistics. You say that you have seen the stats, but I am a professional Auditor and as such I was trained not to believe what people tell me, but I have to see it myself.

The best information I have come across so far is in the following link which shows that other crimes, (robberies, single murders, etc) has not skyrocketed and in some cases has even fallen. (Now the authors do somewhat question a causative link to the 1996 laws; but saying that all other crime has skyrocketed since the enactment does not appear to be anywhere near truth).

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

Subject: RE: Mike Huckabee is a straw-man
Social Justice
posted by James1980 on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 4:50 AM

Yes, the stated connection between Jackboot Johnny Howard's firearm bans and the lack of mass shootings in the several years since is illogical, given that New Zealand also hasn't had any mass shootings in that time period and did not restrict gun ownership like we did at that time - to say nothing of the fact that making gun ownership illegal is no deterrant to a criminally insane person. Why would it be? Governmental restrictions help the criminals by fueling the black market.

Quote from fatherdave on Wednesday, December 19th 2012 @ 9:11 PM

Less guns = less deaths.

Do you honestly believe that taking guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens makes those citizens safer, or for that matter reduces the number of guns owned by criminals?

People with the same mindset introduced alcohol prohibition in the 1920's to reduce the amount of drunkeness. We all know how that one panned out. Likewise the "war on drugs". Really, people with bad intentions will ultimately aquire whatever they want to. You don't make it any harder for them by cracking down on the law-abiding majority; you make it easier for the criminals.

Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns.


Connecticut already had some of the strictest gun laws in America. That's a bloody shame. The teachers were heroic enough to throw themselves into the path of the shooter(s) to try and save the children. What a shame they didn't have guns themselves, because of cowardly leftwing beaurocrats.

In the following CCTV video, titled "How To Stop A Massacre", one elderly man was able to thwart two masked gunmen in a public venue, thanks to his "Concealed Carry" firearm. Note that if the draconian laws some people here are championing had been in place, the old man would not have been armed, but the two bandits would have.

http://youtu.be/epZod2qyyN4

What happened in Connecticut was a stark example of how more people need to have Concealed Carry licenses to avert similar massacres in future. Maturity and responsibility are required in order to protect vulnerable members of the public, not the fear-driven reaction of the anti-gun crowd. It's a lot easier and requires less responsibility on our part just to throw our hands in the air and hope the government will look after us, like infants. They won't.


Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 5:08 AM

James, I did not see anyone say "outlaw guns." Saying, "less guns = less deaths" is not the same as outlawing guns.

A common sense approach is to have more restrictive laws, not total banning. What purpose does an ordinary citizen have in owning a semi-automatic assault rifle, with clips that hold up to 100 rounds?

I would question the mental stability of anyone that is not in a war zone that has stockpiles of ammunition and assault rifles in their suburban home, (or even one assault rifle). I think that is a little paranoid, don't you?

What purpose did Adam Lanza's mother have in owning a semi-automatic assault rifle, (in addition to two handguns)?

Australia didn't ban assault rifles, they only put restrictions on who could purchase them, so they did not end up in the hands of ordinary citizens.

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 6:59 AM

Everyone here, there, and everywhere seem to be ignoring the reason for owning the weapon(s) one chooses to posess and for the the inclusion of the Second Amendment to the US Constitution: a deterrent to tyranny. It is well documented that Yamamoto advised the Japanese emperor against an invasion of the US Mainland because of private firearms. This situation also tempers the actions of the leftists who have power and wish to change the nation into a socialist or communist or totalitarian regime. Even China has called for the American citizenry to be disarmed. Why would they care, unless their plan is basically the same?

Switzerland hasn't been invaded in a long time, and they were able to repulse Napolean once upon a time, partly because of private ownership of firearms. Nowadays every Swiss home has the carbine of the reservist who lives there in a closet, along with 20 rounds of ammo.

There is little doubt that a major military offensive against the portion of the populace who would choose to resist being overrum would in time succeed. The casualties would be horrendous, and even the most brazen of statists hesitates to order that. To date, that is. We have never yet had the likes of a Lenin, Chavez, Castro, etc, rise to power in this nation. Yet. Some fear that we are now at that crossroads, but only time will tell.

Let's please limit the misinformation in all of this. I visit local gun shops often to see what's new, and there are no 100 round magazines available to civilians. Maybe as a WWII collectable, but not for modern use. I would not buy it if it were on sale for my carbine, as it would be too unwieldy to be practical and would probably be unreliable.

I am aware that there is 0% likelihood that anyone will change my mind or vice versa. I will remain here, "clinging to my guns & religion" as our president sneered about us.


Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 9:51 AM

Cibby, it is not misinformation that 20, 50 and yes 100 round clips are available to citizens. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean they are not available, (see link below to the Colorado shooting and another link to Cabela's, a well known retailer where these clips can be purchased).

As far as owning a weapon as a deterrent to tyranny, most developed nations don't have that concern. There are enough laws and separation of powers in place to prevent that. If those laws and separation of powers break down, then we might be concerned.

Until then, like I said previously a common sense approach is needed. Which means not a total ban, but also not a free for all where anyone can obtain a firearm or a specific one at will.

After you see the stats from this link, do you believe that anyone who pursued such a stockpile of ammunition was doing it to deter tyranny in the United States?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/20/12865072-colorado-shooter-used-shotgun-assault-style-rifle-with-100-round-drum-magazine?lite

And here is a link to a 90 round mag for purchase at Cabela's.

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=707820&destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct.jsp%3FproductId%3D709938&WTz_l=YMAL%3BIK-290662

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 12:27 PM

I refer to 100 round mag's for rifles. I have a 50 round pistol clip myself, but it has reliability issues and is a real 'mother' to load, so it's pretty useless. The 100 round drum combo is here locally, but also plagued with loading inconsistently, and is for shotgun so I didn't count it in my post. Beyond capacities of about 40, magazines are gimmicks. My deer gun is single shot, so I'm a purist.

I don't have an AK or AR. but those are the muskets that our Founding Fathers knew and wanted us to keep. Our S&W is their flintlock pistol. Times and weapons have changed, but the need remains. Then it was the British who wanted to disarm the colonists -- now it is leftists who want a totalitarian regime. Disarmed citizens are a requirement. If you advocate allowing the government to impose a "common sense approach" of its chosing, then you are kidding yourself. Law abiding citizens should be allowed to freely purchase and own any civilian weapon they desire, with no limitations.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 3:27 PM

Quote from James1980 on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 4:50 AM

Yes, the stated connection between Jackboot Johnny Howard's firearm bans and the lack of mass shootings in the several years since is illogical, given that New Zealand also hasn't had any mass shootings in that time period and did not restrict gun ownership like we did at that time - to say nothing of the fact that making gun ownership illegal is no deterrant to a criminally insane person. Why would it be? Governmental restrictions help the criminals by fueling the black market.

'Illogical' means 'contrary to human logic'.

The statement may be incorrect, but it certainly does not run contrary to human logic.

As to the growth of the black market after the introduction of tighter gun-laws, the same argument is used in favour of legalising heroine and other illicit narcotics.

Indeed, the argument in favor of legaising narcotics is somewhat stronger as regulation in the narcotics industry would mean less barbiturates and other impurities mixed in the the user's drug of choice.

Even so, I'm not convinced that this is an adquate reason to legalise lethal drugs any more than it is to re-legalise more lethal weapons.

Quote from James1980 on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 4:50 AM

Do you honestly believe that taking guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens makes those citizens safer?

Of course.

From the statistics mentioned here and here, it seems that on average five children are injured or killed in the United States by accidental shootings every day.

I assume that most (if not all) of these accidental gun accidents happen in the homes of 'law-abiding citizens'. Therefore, unless at least five American children are having their lives saved by guns each day, it is obviously true that taking away these guns would make their lives safer.

Quote from James1980 on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 4:50 AM

People with the same mindset introduced alcohol prohibition in the 1920's to reduce the amount of drunkeness. We all know how that one panned out. Likewise the "war on drugs". Really, people with bad intentions will ultimately aquire whatever they want to.

I know we are always ready to parody prohibition as a monumental failure, but I believe that the statistics on alcohol-related crimes for that period were remarkable!

  • A massive reduction in alcohol-related vehicle accidents and deaths
  • less acts of alcohol-induced violence on the streets
  • etc.

With regards to the 'war on drugs', I saw it work very successfully in our own area.

Between 1990 and 2000 I worked quite closely with the police to see dealers apprehended and safe-houses busted. There were other factors, of course, but the bottom-line is that we now have very little drug use or drug-related crime in Dulwich Hill.

Quote from James1980 on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 4:50 AM

Connecticut already had some of the strictest gun laws in America. That's a bloody shame. The teachers were heroic enough to throw themselves into the path of the shooter(s) to try and save the children. What a shame they didn't have guns themselves, because of cowardly leftwing beaurocrats.

As to this final line of argument - that the solution to the prevalence of gun crimes is to arm more people, I can only quote Dan Gross (head of the "Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence")' in his recent response to this suggestion:

"It's insane ... Think about what that's saying. It's saying the only answer to violence is more violence. The only answer to guns is more guns."

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 3:40 PM

Quote from Cibby on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 12:27 PM

Law abiding citizens should be allowed to freely purchase and own any civilian weapon they desire, with no limitations.

Do you really believe this, Cibby?

You mentioned bombs above as a legitimate weapon. Should everyone be able to freely purchase bombs too?

If so, where do we stop? Are hand-grenades OK? What about bazookas? What about tactical nuclear devices?

I'm sure you believe in imposing limits at some point?

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 11:21 PM

So Cibby, if a person has been a law abiding citizen all their life but also has a history of mental illness but never broke the law, they should be entitled to whatever firepower they want without limitations?

And you don't think we should question an individual that is not in a war zone why they need to buy 6,000 rounds of ammo in a very short period of time.

So I guess individual rights trump the welfare of your neighbor?

Is that what Jesus taught? Or any prophet from any world religion?


Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 11:35 PM

Oh and Cibby, did you not review the links in my post? The 90 and 100 round mags was for an AR Assault rifle that are available to the public. Not only for a shotgun as you state. You had stated previously 100 round mags are not available to citizens and stated others were providing misinformation, when infact you were.

I gave you two links to show that such things are easily available to citizens. Please review the information I provide.

And if they are so useless as you say, why did anyone die in the Colorado shooting? Not every single one of the shooters high capacity clips jammed before firing the first shot.


Rob Burgess
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by RobBurgess on Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 3:43 AM

Seems like we are all looking to facts to justify our own positions, aren't we?

In his book, The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, author Jonathan Haidt contends that our stance on a particular topic is usually based on deeper emotional feelings than it is based on any logical or rational explanation.

I am not a psychologist or sociologist or cultural anthropologist. The few courses that I have taken in these areas were many years ago. It seemed to me at the time that our knowledge of human actions in these disciplines is very rudimentary. But let's suppose that Haidt is correct. Let's suppose that there is some underlying fear or other emotion which really guides our stances on gun ownership and gun rights.

Assume that is true.

What we are really hoping to accomplish is to end or at least greatly reduce the chance of another mass school or theatre or church or wherever shooting of children or adults.   Isn't that what we really want to accomplish?

If as Haidt points out both sides are operating from fear, and if it simply is not possible to eliminate ALL guns because that is the only way to ensure that there is no more gun deaths isn't it?...

Then, maybe we should pray to God that God gives guidance to our poltical leaders. Maybe we should pray that the guidance God provides helps our leaders to see a way to drastically reduce the number of mass murders from guns in our countries. To paraphrase:

"Thy will, not mine, be done"

And after we do that, I suppose we can all argue with each other and write letters to the editor of local papers and to our local politicians and perhaps try to decipher what underlying fear prevents us from caring more about preventing harm to children than arguing with each other.

Please forgive me for ending with a quote from a famous Democrat/liberal. Nonetheless one who understands the impact of gun violence on a family:

"If you bungle raising your children, I don't think whatever else you do matters very much."

- Jackie Kennedy Onassis


Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 3:58 AM

Quote from RobBurgess on Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 3:43 AM

Seems like we are all looking to facts to justify our own positions, aren't we?

Rob, that is what most people tend to do. As a professional Auditor, I was trained to go in with an equal and open mind to all possibilites and not to render an opinion until I have not only gathered the facts but also where the facts I have gathered can be readily shown to others. Which is why I provided links to the information I was providing, so people could check it themselves.

All of our opinions should be driven by facts. Sometimes those facts can be disputed, but sometimes they can not. But having an mis-informed opinion does not help us move forward.

As a further note to the current discussion:

Steve Blow of the Dallas Morning News made some very good points in today's paper. We are all actually on the same side on the Gun Control issue. No one in their right mind believes that we should not have any Gun Control. Should a 12 year old be able to buy a Glock? Should Walmart sell Machine Guns? Should Academy or Cabela's offer shoulder-fired missile launchers?

Of course these are extreme examples. But it proves the point. It's not about pro or con, yes or no, it's about common sense on where the lines should be drawn.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 10:28 AM

Quote from RobBurgess on Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 3:43 AM

Seems like we are all looking to facts to justify our own positions, aren't we?

This is a timely and powerful post from you, brother Rob, and I certainly take your point.

I often make a similar point with regards to relgious arguments. People don't generally adopt religious positions for rational reasons, so why would we expect rationality to shift them from their positions?

I'm sure that there are indeed parallels here. I think 'the facts' and 'rationality' often function to 'give us permission' to change our position if we were already inclined to do so anyway, but they rarely initiate change.

Having said that, the problem we have here is that we have nothing else to work with beyond 'the facts' and cold rationality, except prayer I suppose. Perhaps I should spend more time praying for your country and less time arguing with its citizens. :)

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 12:30 PM

My apologies to the diehard liberals on the list -- I did mention "bombs", but never in the context of civilians. Ditto hand grenades. I know better than to use words that lend themselves to out of context references.

I have referred only to legitimate firearms and accessories, that I can purchase at my local gun shop, for my personal enjoyment and use. I have always been, and remain, law-abiding. My military days are behind me, and so is any M-16 contact. An AR-15 is not an M-16, or "assault" weapon. It may look similar, cosmetically, but then a VW looks almost like a Porsche. I don't own any one of these, but know how to tell them apart and how to use all of them.

Feel free to press your point, but Tobey, my favored local gun dealer, chooses not to stock 100 round pistol or rifle magazines because they are not reliable, and so will not sell. He will order it for you, if you wish to look that silly. I get daily email's from Cabela's, CheaperThanDirt, and Palmetto Armory, so am quite aware of what can be purchased by merely giving a credit card number. They are 'cute'. Pretty cumbersome, but cute. I also don't care if they were used in a crime, as that is not the fault of the magazine, but indicates a breakdown of a system.

I speak with a Southern drawl today, and not a Limey accent, because my ancestors owned firearms and refused to give them up. If y'all opt to cling to the belief that "these are modern times and it couldn't happen here", knock yourselves out. Count me out of that delusion, please, and enjoy your KoolAid.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:55 PM

Quote from Cibby on Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 12:30 PM

I have referred only to legitimate firearms and accessories, that I can purchase at my local gun shop, for my personal enjoyment and use.

This is what's called 'begging the question", brother.

The question we've been discussing is over what firearms should be considered legitimate for civilian purchase and use. If you respond by saying that only legitimate firearms should be considered legitimate, it still begs the question 'what firearms should we consider legitimate?'

Our disagreement has only ever been one of degree:

  • nobody is suggesting that all firearms are legimate for civilian use.
  • nobody is suggesting that any firearms should be availabe to everybody, including children.

Our disagreement is over what level of killing-power should be considered appropriate for civilian sale and usage and who should be permitted to purchase such weapons. You are favouring more people with more fire-power. I am favouring less of both.

The reference to bombs was not meant as sarcasm. I'm trying to ascertain where you think the line should be drawn.

And I'm not sure if the label 'liberal' is helpful.

I'm not sure if that labels fits me (and certainly not in this country, where the term has very different political connotations). I guess I could be called'liberal' in some areas but conservative in others (eg. I oppose abortion on demand). I guess the common denominator there is that I'm 'pro-life' (and not only 'pro-birth').

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: P.S.
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:02 PM

I know not everyone here will appreciate this but I thought that Rabbi Eric Yoffie's article, "Gun Worship Is Blasphemy", was very good. Certainly it hightlights the fact that the issue of gun-control is a religious issue

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:53 PM

All rhetoric aside, there are quite enough laws regarding firearms in place in the USA. There are no lines for me to draw, so references to bombs or grenades or real assault weapons are so silly as to be insulting to my intelligence. A citizen should be able to collect as many legitimate models as he wishes. That same principle applies to a collector of stamps, swords, or Corvettes. A couple of the latter can become lethal if so intended, by the way.

If I wish to purchase military/assault/explosive weapons and have the funds, I will be able to buy them no matter where I live on the planet. (Extremely challenging in China and North Korea, but possible)

Millions of law-abiding American gun enthusiasts killed only time this year. Ditto for last year. The number of guns they own and the size of their magazines were never issues. Only a tyrant would attempt to distort that fact or adapt the related data for his own agenda. We are the good guys, and dislike the bad guys more than the liberals. This is not about guns for them, by the way -- it's about control, in the short term at least.

I subscribe to the philosophy of a couple of the American Founding Fathers, and feel that it is my duty, not priviledge, to be armed in order to protect my family and self. I always am.

If it's unnecessary human death and suffering you're trying to prevent, address medical malpractice. It's not violent or spectacular, but is insidious as hell and kills more certainly than a gunshot. After you solve that, go after automobiles, tobacco, and alcohol/illegal drugs. Let me know when you're finished, and I'll give you more items to fix, and the list still won't include my legitimate firearms.

And sorry, Dave, but you are a classic Liberal Democrat by American definition. Catholics in this country oppose abortion, but they almost all vote Democrat. A true conservative would not have to impose his opinion globally such that it negatively affects my freedoms. Liberals gave us Prohibition, and they will sure as hell try to give us gun control, gay marriage, pagan temples, etc, etc, etc.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 6:44 PM

Quote from Cibby on Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:53 PM

There are no lines for me to draw

You are saying then that there are no lines to be drawn because the lines the government has already drawn are exactly right in your opinion?

Quote from Cibby on Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:53 PM

And sorry, Dave, but you are a classic Liberal Democrat by American definition.

Perhaps I am? I have no idea really, but I can tell you that I have no loyalty to any particular political ideology or party. Hence I'm not sure how such labels help except as a means to side-line someone? I would like to think I'm loyal to Jesus (as I understand Him). That's about it.

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 7:27 PM

In answering Dave's question "You are saying then that there are no lines to be drawn because the lines the government has already drawn are exactly right in your opinion?"

Not at all. I contend and maintain that there are already a lot of laws on the books which regulate personal (civilian) firearms. The fact that I believe that they are excessive is immaterial, since the enforcement thereof is not performed uniformly, but rather to serve an agenda. The "Fast & Furious" fiasco is a modern-day prime example.

I am resigned to the fact that there is no chance that any of these laws will go away. I have no need or desire to own a sawed-off shotgun or automatic weapon of any kind, for example, so I am not greatly affected by existing law. I do not feel that they are needed at all for a free and moral society, as was once envisioned for my nation.

I don't feel that ideological tags "sideline" anyone. We're not in uniform, and this is simply a way to let someone know that I know where their loyalties lie, lest there be any doubt.


Rob Burgess
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by RobBurgess on Wednesday, December 26th 2012 @ 12:17 AM

"Though gun-related deaths did not suddenly end in Australia, gun-related homicides dropped 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. Suicides by gun plummeted by 65 percent, and robberies at gunpoint also dropped significantly."

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2012/1224/Could-the-US-learn-from-Australia-s-gun-control-laws

"Between 2006 and 2010, 561 children age 12 and under were killed by firearms (in the United States), according to the FBI’s most recent Uniform Crime Reports. The numbers each year are consistent: 120 in 2006; 115 in 2007; 116 in 2008, 114 in 2009 and 96 in 2010. The FBI’s count does not include gun-related child deaths that authorities have ruled accidental."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/young-childrens-gun-deaths-from-2006-10-are-roughly-5-times-the-child-deaths-in-newtown/2012/12/24/718a70fc-4de7-11e2-835b-02f92c0daa43_story.html


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Thursday, December 27th 2012 @ 1:12 AM

Quote from Cibby on Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 7:27 PM

I don't feel that ideological tags "sideline" anyone. We're not in uniform, and this is simply a way to let someone know that I know where their loyalties lie, lest there be any doubt.

I think that was my point. I don't have any loyalty to any particular political ideology and so it is entirely appropriate for you to have doubts about where I might stand on particular issues.

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Thursday, December 27th 2012 @ 1:35 AM

Quote from RobBurgess on Wednesday, December 26th 2012 @ 12:17 AM

"Between 2006 and 2010, 561 children age 12 and under were killed by firearms (in the United States), according to the FBI’s most recent Uniform Crime Reports.

And now I believe there have been some more tragic shootings!

According to this article that just came out in the Huffington Post, the number of children killed by guns in the US this year is the equivalent of nearly six Newtown massacres!

My question now is this:

If the defenders of guns are right - ie. that the number and the fire-power and the availability of guns in the US is not the cause of the high number of gun deaths, then what is the cause?

I don't believe anyone challenges the fact that the US has roughly ten times the number of gun-related murders and suicides than countries like Australia (relative to the size of population). If that's not because of the less stringent gun laws, what explanation can we give?

  • Are Americans just genetically a more violent race of people?
  • Is American culture just instrinsically more violent?

If it's not the guns, what is it?

I see from the international stats (that can be found here) that the US is not the country with the highest rate of firearm-related deaths. It comes in at number 10 worldwide. But most of those that rank above it are countries involved in civil wars I think. Indeed, according to those figures the US is slightly ahead of South Africa - a country that is drowning in blood at the moment. This shocked me!

Anyway ... if it's not the number and availability and firepower of firearms, what other explanation do gun advocates offer?

Personally, I love my American friends and I refuse to accept that they are in any way defective, genetically or culturally. I'm going to continue to blame the laws!

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Thursday, December 27th 2012 @ 12:02 PM

Nice statistics that you are bantering about, but I choose to disagree with the most basic part of your entire premise: Not a single one of those people was killed with a gun. The killing was performed by a person with a mental problem who was using a gun as the tool that was chosen.

I have yet to hear anyone on this list calling for hammer control -- that's how Adam Spengler killed his grandmother some years ago. I believe his sister and two firemen would still be alive today if he had not been paroled after serving only 17 years of a life sentence for murder. Why was he not executed? (As a convicted felon, he could not legally lay a hand on any kind of firearm.) Could it be that you who are proud to be so liberal and altruistic don't always like what it gets you?

Most of the violent crime in some major US cities is directly attributable to gangs and criminal elements from south of the US border who are in the country illegally. Another negative result of liberal policy?

The main problem that I have with this discussion's direction is that I'm seeing solutions for a problem that was not created by law-abiding citizens by taking away freedoms from law-abiding citizens. Why not simply enforce the laws that exist? I realize that wee bit of logic will completely escape most folks on this list, but it's crystal clear to me. I don't expect Brit's and Aussies to understand, but I subscribe to the US Constitution. It did not give me the rights that I cherish, but it includes a Bill of Rights that delineates the most basic of them, and tells my government that it cannot take them away.

Father Dave, I'm beginning to realize that you encouraged me to join in this forum in order to be a token conservative to balance out the group. This arrangement is proving to be un-fun.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Thursday, December 27th 2012 @ 12:30 PM

Quote from Cibby on Thursday, December 27th 2012 @ 12:02 PM

Father Dave, I'm beginning to realize that you encouraged me to join in this forum in order to be a token conservative to balance out the group.

I'm afraid that's simply untrue

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Thursday, December 27th 2012 @ 12:31 PM

And I forgot the quote that really makes my point: "If guns kill people, then spoons make folks fat, pencils cause spelling errors, and mirrors make some people ugly..."

I is spoke.

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Thursday, December 27th 2012 @ 1:10 PM

It seems the British agree with me. "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

It's fact. Deal with it.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Thursday, December 27th 2012 @ 11:28 PM

Quote from Cibby on Thursday, December 27th 2012 @ 12:02 PM

Most of the violent crime in some major US cities is directly attributable to gangs and criminal elements from south of the US border who are in the country illegally.

I appreciate having another theory put forward that would explain the high rate of gun crime in the US compared to other countries, most especially as it is an easy one to assess.

If the US's high rate of gun deaths is associated with the criminal activities of illegal aliens then we would expect that the states in the US that have the most illegal aliens will have the highest rate of gun-related crime (and vica versa).

Stats in both of these areas are readily available:

With regards to illegal aliens, California certainly has more illegal aliens than any other US state. Indeed, according to these figures from the US Department of Homeland Security, California accounts for 25% of all illegal aliens in the country!

In terms of the states with the greatest numbers of illegal aliens, the top 5 are:

  • California (25%)
  • Texas (14%)
  • Florida (8%)
  • Illinois (5%)
  • New York (5%)

State-by-state breakdowns with regards to firearm-related deaths are also readily available. Indeed, there are some comprehensive statistics compile by the FBI available here.

According to the state-by-state comparison there, the state with the highest rate of firearm-related murders as a percentage of population is the District of Columbia.

In terms of the rate of firearm murders per 100,000 in the population, the leading five states are.

  • District of Columbia (12.46)
  • Louisiana (10.16)
  • Mississippi (7.46)
  • South Caroline (5.41)
  • Michigan (5.06)

California comes in at no.11 on that list.

I don't pretend to be an expert in statistical analysis and I'm happy to be corrected if I've overlooked something, but these statistis seem to suggest that the issue of illegal aliens and the rate of gun-homicides is unrelated.

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Rob Burgess
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by RobBurgess on Friday, December 28th 2012 @ 2:06 AM

"As a matter of policy, we are presently at an impasse. The Left simply can’t persuade gun owners they’re safer with more restrictions, nor can the Left paint a picture of a gun-free world that the gun-owner wants to inhabit. As much as the Right argues that arming teachers and administrators would protect kids, enough teachers and administrators are appalled by the idea that it’s simply not going to happen outside the most culturally conservative regions."

- The National Review, December 21, 2012

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/336316/gun-rights-gun-control-and-irreconcilable-cultural-differences-david-french

P.S. The National Review is a conservative publication founded by William F. Buckley, an intellectual and conservative columnist and TV host.

On the other hand, the liberal Atlantic posted the following article on the correlations with gun violence in American society.

"So what are the factors that are associated with firearm deaths at the state level?

Poverty is one. The correlation between death by gun and poverty at the state level is .59.

An economy dominated by working class jobs is another. Having a high percentage of working class jobs is closely associated with firearm deaths (.55).

And, not surprisingly, firearm-related deaths are positively correlated with the rates of high school students that carry weapons on school property (.54)...

Firearm deaths were far less likely to occur in states with higher levels of college graduates (-.64) and more creative class jobs (-.52).

Gun deaths were also less likely in states with higher levels of economic development (with a correlation of -.32 to economic output) and higher levels of happiness and well-being (-.41)."

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/

Thus, a conservative and liberal take on the subject.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Friday, December 28th 2012 @ 10:22 AM

Quote from RobBurgess on Friday, December 28th 2012 @ 2:06 AM

Firearm deaths were far less likely to occur in states with higher levels of college graduates (-.64) and more creative class jobs (-.52).

This is helpful. Thank you.

Does this mean though that a gun is a working-class man's weapon or does this mean only that general levels of crime and violence higher where there is greater poverty and less education?

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Friday, December 28th 2012 @ 12:31 PM

When folks are civil -- all folks, that is -- and sit down to analyze the problem and brainstorm to come up with a solution that is not emotional, it can be done. Knowing your personally-desired result in advance and forcing all discussion and information to reinforce that end, not only enflames others but fixes non-problems, often with undesirable results, while leaving the problem unscathed.

My engineering background forces me to function this way because I know it works. Knee-jerk reactions rarely produce beneficial outcomes. You may be able to survive for a while going with your gut without reasoning to back it up, but intuition won't solve anything. Recall Obama's "... ready, shoot, aim ..." if that is easier for any to relate to.

Lawful gun ownership is perfectly safe. I contend that it is safer than automobile ownership. What, then, is the root cause of the problem to be solved? Nobody has yet swayed me from my opinion that the problem is illegal possession and use of firearms.

Taking anything away from citizens who should be free to legally own anything they wish does nothing more than dry up one source for illegally obtaining a gun by theft. Because the bad guys know they will get off with an easy sentence, if any, if caught, there is no deterrent for their activities.

If they are determined enough and crazed enough, they will find a way to do damage to. It's a simple matter to go to the corner grocery and buy chemicals that would allow someone to kill and/or maim a lot of people.

Where there's a will there's a way, but the liberals want to disarm me so that I have little or no chance of stopping it? Is there another agenda at work ? I am wary of ungodly folks, and I've never seen a government in church. None of the list's gun-grabbers have caused me to pause in my thinking. I cherish my freedoms as do most of my friends, and personal firearms ownership is simply a deterrent to those who would take those.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/education/item/14040-gun-classes-for-teachers-taking-off-following-nra%25E2%2580%2599s-suggestion


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: African-Americans and Gun-violence!
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Saturday, January 5th 2013 @ 12:43 AM

It seems that there is a particular demographic group in the US who figure particularly highly in gun-violence issues. It's not illegal immirgrants though. It's African-Americans!

According to this article by Professor David Cole of Georgetown University Law Center:

"Last year Chicago had some 500 homicides, 87 percent of them gun-related. In the city’s public schools, 319 students were shot in the 2011-12 school year, 24 of them fatally. African-Americans are 33 percent of the Chicago population, but about 70 percent of the murder victims.

The same is true in other cities. In 2011, 80 percent of the 324 people killed in Philadelphia were killed by guns, and three-quarters of the victims were black.

Racial disparities in gun violence far outstrip those in almost any other area of life. Black unemployment is double that for whites, as is black infant mortality. But young black men die of gun homicide at a rate eight times that of young white men. Could it be that the laxity of the nation’s gun laws is tolerated because its deadly costs are borne by the segregated black and Latino populations of North Philadelphia and Chicago’s South Side?"

Cole concludes the article by paraphrasing the gun-lobby's aphorism:

"guns don’t kill people; indifference to poverty kills people."

When we take into account the socio-economic and educational issues, Cole's analysis is entirely complimentary with the analysis given by Rob above.

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Rob Burgess
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by RobBurgess on Sunday, January 6th 2013 @ 4:29 AM

Here's my take on Father Dave's comments about poverty, African Americans, and gun deaths:

I do not believe that there is a one-to-one correlation between poverty and gun deaths in the world. If there was, then gun deaths in places like Bangla Desh, sub-Saharan Africa, Central America, and other "third world" impoverished countries would be higher than anywhere else in the world.

However, I do think that income inequality combined with poverty and disenfranchisement and loss of hope, primarily among young males, along with the availability of guns does lead to more gun violence.

For decades, Detroit, Michigan, home of General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler has had one of the highest rates of gun violence in the United States.

Detroit is one of the poorest cities in the country. In the 1940s and 1950s, it was one of the richest.   Arguably, without Detroit America would not have been able to help win World War II. Most of the munitions, planes, bombers, etc., built during the war were built by Detroit.

Last year over 400 gun deaths took place in the city. It is now primarily poor, primarily African American. A city what was once the 5th largest in the country with more than 1.8 million people in the 1950s, now has only 700,000.

Some of the suburbs of Detroit are still some of the richest in the state of Michigan and in the counry. These include Gross Pointe, Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills, etc. (As a side note: Dearborn, where Ford is actually headquartered, is home to the largest concentration of Arab Americans in the country. Relatively peaceful and propserous city.)

Sadly. In the United States, more African American men are in jail or prison or on probation than are in college BY FAR. Most of the infractions for these men per statistics that I have read are non-violent drug offenses (possesion and sales of minor amounts of illegal drugs.)

However, once these men are incarcerated, once they have a felony, they are no longer allowed to vote, they have difficulty finding employment since employers do not like to hire ex-felons.

The schools in urban areas are notoriously bad as well. The city of Detroit schools are bankrupt.   Their enrollment has declined from 180,000 students to 70,000 students in 15 years. Their test scores, graduation rates, and other achievement data are terrible.

Their school buildings, once the pride of the communtiy, are poorly maintained and out dated.   Often entering one of these schools, you are probably greeted by school guards (with or without guns) and/or metal detectors. Several studies have concluded that such "security enhancements" actually make children feel less safe, not more. Thus, the "security" measures add to the feeling of despair.

This is not just a fact in Detroit, but most, if not all major urban areas in the country. Some like Dertroit, Gary-Indiana, Youngstown-Ohio, Newark-New Jersey, etc., are just worse than others.

My church is in Benton Harbor, Michigan. It is the 2nd poorest school dsitrict in the state. It is also next door to St. Joseph, Michigan the wealthiest school district in our county. the only separation is a river.

Children in Benton Harbor attend a school that is bankrupt. Crumbling buildings, Poor test scores, high drop out rates, primarily African American with some Hispanics and few whites.

St. Joseph is exactly the opposite. Almost all white, with some Hispanics and a few blacks. It's buildings have refently been remodeled and upgraded for 21st century technology in every classroom. Parents expect most of their children will attend university.

St. Joseph and Benton Harbor compete in basketball, football, and other sports. So, children from both cities see the other child's schools and school facilities.

So, hopelessness and income inequality and concentrated poverty and the access to guns for lots of angry and disenfranchised young men, I think is the reason for gun violence.

And yes, for my conservative brothers and sisters the breakdown of the family is a reason too. Not sure,however, which comes first: the family's breakdown or grinding poverty and hopelessness. They seem to me to be intertwined.

This is a video from a liberal cartoonist from downtown Detroit on New Year's Eve. The city has a "tradition" of shooting off guns at midnight.

http://www.freep.com/article/20130104/BLOG2401/130104074/gun-control-Sandy-Hook-NRA-guns


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Sunday, January 6th 2013 @ 1:51 PM

Quote from RobBurgess on Sunday, January 6th 2013 @ 4:29 AM

Sadly. In the United States, more African American men are in jail or prison or on probation than are in college BY FAR.

I had no idea things were that bad!

Thanks for an excellent and insightful analysis

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Rob Burgess
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by RobBurgess on Wednesday, January 9th 2013 @ 4:04 AM

This 7 minute interview on CNN's Piers Morgan speaks for itself as a pro-gun rights advocate shall we say loses his composure? And that is a mild way of saying it:

http://youtu.be/AtyKofFih8Y

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by James1980 on Wednesday, January 9th 2013 @ 2:49 PM

It does indeed speak for itself, Rob. Piers Morgan is not a reporter, he is a political activist for billionaires. He does not report news & current events, he runs state propaganda. His hands are dirty even by the standards of his profession, as he has criminal charges waiting for him back in England.

Although there's no doubt Alex Jones could have composed himself better, Alex wouldn't play his game with the leading questions about unrelated statistical snippets that are meant to lead the viewer's mind to fill-in-the-blanks to reach the interviewer's desired conclusion - oldest journalistic trick in the book, and remarkable how many statists still swallow it hook, line and sinker.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Thursday, January 10th 2013 @ 1:32 AM

I don't think anybody could seriously defend the way Alex Jones behaved in that interview - even threatening to beat up his interviewer!

It would seem from comments on the Australian Sun Herald's report on the interview that Jones won few new fans through his behaviour.

The statistics speak for themselves. I don't think we need to re-hash them. Two points though are worth making:

  1. Jones' pro-gun argument seems to be entirely fueled by fear. It's about all the terrible things that will happen to us if they take our guns away. Faith and fear of this sort are diametically opposed to one another. As the Psalmist says, "I will not trust in my bow" (Psalm 44:6).

  2. There seems to be some confusion in the US, as exemplified by Jones, that taking up arms against your own government would be another war of independence. Some of my Southern brethren even seem to think this would be akin to their 19th century 'War between the States'.

    Individuals taking up arms against their own government is not a war of indepenence. It's anarchy! One of the fundamental principles of Augustine's 'Just War Theory' that both Washington's supporters and the 19th century secessionists adhered to very strongly was that war can only be waged by a legitimate authority.

    A state government or a Confederacy of states might function as a legitimate authority that can wage war but individuals cannot and must not! Individual armed rebellion is nothing but anarchy!
________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Thursday, January 10th 2013 @ 3:00 AM

Don't know how familiar people here are with the DSM IV manual in the United States. It is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It is what Psychiatrists, Psychologists and other clinicians use for diagnosis of mental illness.

I will quote from it:

Page 690 - 691, Paranoid Personality Disorder, Diagnosis 301.0

"The essential feature of paranoid personality disorder is a pattern of pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others such that their motives are interpreted as malevolent. Individuals with this disorder assume that other people will exploit, harm, or deceive them, even if no evidence exists to support this expectation." (Criterion A1)

"Individuals with this disorder persistently bear grudges and are unwilling to forgive the insults, injuries, or slights that they think they have received." (Criterion A5)

It makes me wonder if Alex Jones would even pass a psychological evaluation to own a firearm, (and he apparently has over 50). I believe Switzerland as part of their re-licensing requirements every 5 years requires a psychological assessment.

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Thursday, January 10th 2013 @ 12:32 PM

Quote from fatherdave on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 3:40 PM

Do you really believe this, Cibby?

Quote from fatherdave on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 3:40 PM

You mentioned bombs above as a legitimate weapon. Should everyone be able to freely purchase bombs too?

Quote from fatherdave on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 3:40 PM

If so, where do we stop? Are hand-grenades OK? What about bazookas? What about tactical nuclear devices?

Quote from fatherdave on Thursday, December 20th 2012 @ 3:40 PM

I'm sure you believe in imposing limits at some point?

This blog is beginning to become more tiring than I ever imagined. I have never mentioned any of the BS that you credit to me. I advocate the legal ownership of any and all CIVILIAN WEAPONS. Clearer this time?

If gun control is the perfect answer, why are there still murders by gun in Australia? The best cure for gun violence is to allow good guys who wish to arm themselves so that they can reduce the carnage when bad buys take it upon themselves to do bad things. I don't tell anyone they should become armed. Now if only the liberals would piss off and not tell me that I should not arm myself, we could agree to disagree.

As a fact check, I looked at a globe. Neither Australia nor New Zealand has a corrupt government along half of its southern border. That would not be a big problem except that over 25 million of its citizens have entered the USA illegally, and have brought their violent gangs and weapons with them, as well as TB and a few other goodies. Our ultra-liberal administration is using the drug cartels that now span the USA/Mexico border for gun-running and money-laundering. There is, therefore, an endless supply of "undocumented weapons" coming into the USA, many of which fall into the military category, illegal for personal ownership. Still.

Thirteen of my ancestors fought to help this colony become free from the British Crown. I don't expect full understanding from those who grew up in and come from a country still part of the Empire. So be it.

And if Liberals are so altruistic, why is it that the individual charitable contributions by evil Conservatives average eight times theirs? Does Obama wish to eliminate the tax deduction for those contributions so that government can become "the sole source of charity"?


Rob Burgess
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by RobBurgess on Thursday, January 10th 2013 @ 8:54 PM

According to a recent study, gun deaths in America exceed auto deaths in 10 states and are approachinig national auto death rates.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20130109/NEWS01/301090049/Analysis-Gun-deaths-exceed-traffic-fatalities-Michigan

And by the way, my direct ancestor came over on a boat with the Puritans. He (Roger Wililams) once said: "That cannot be a true religion which needs carnal weapons to uphold it."



Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Friday, January 11th 2013 @ 1:50 AM

Quote from Cibby on Thursday, January 10th 2013 @ 12:32 PM

This blog is beginning to become more tiring than I ever imagined. I have never mentioned any of the BS that you credit to me. I advocate the legal ownership of any and all CIVILIAN WEAPONS. Clearer this time?


Cibby, what do you classify as a "Civilian Weapon?" Isn't a civilian weapon only a civilian weapon if classified as such by your government? Do you believe in having no gun regulations whatsoever? And if you do believe that some regulations are required, then isn't it up to the American people which regulations make sense and which one's don't? Does it make sense that only "licensed" dealers in the U.S. are required to do background checks? Did you know that with the recent gun buyback in Tuscon on Tuesday on the 2nd anniversary of the shooting that left 6 dead and 13 wounded, there were private citizens purchasing firearms right in front of police officers and no background check was being done?

Quote from Cibby on Thursday, January 10th 2013 @ 12:32 PM

If gun control is the perfect answer, why are there still murders by gun in Australia? The best cure for gun violence is to allow good guys who wish to arm themselves so that they can reduce the carnage when bad buys take it upon themselves to do bad things. I don't tell anyone they should become armed. Now if only the liberals would piss off and not tell me that I should not arm myself, we could agree to disagree.

Cibby, no one is stating that gun control is the perfect answer. But there are regulations that make common sense to reduce gun violence that the U.S. has refused to institute. If that were not true the U.S. would not have nearly a 3000% higher gun homocide rate than Australia, a 700% higher gun homocide rate than Switzerland, or over a 10,000% higher gun homocide rate than the UK. All are per capita figures to take into account differing sizes of the population (see first link).

2nd link is to total homocides for those same countries by any method, again proving that either the U.S. gun regulations suck compared to other countries or we are just a more violent race of people than other parts of the developed world, you make the call.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/194/rate_of_gun_homicide/10,91,192,178

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/194/rate_of_homicide_any_method/10,91,192,178

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by Cibby on Friday, January 11th 2013 @ 8:26 AM

Now I have to define the definition of "is"? I was of the opinion that reasonable folk understood the difference between military and civilian weapons. Only a retard would consider a fully automatic or explosive type as eligible for ownership by the latter group, as we don't have the need or the training of the former group. Good grief, Charlie Brown! I'll be glad when they find a cure.

If gun control makes sense and works for the island countries of Britain, Australia, and Atlantis, let it work for you. I suggest, however, that you are neither willing nor capable of empathy with my opinions. You neglected to comment on my entire point about the southern border of the USA, which puntuates my last point. Cat got your tongue? Or another liberal application of the freedom of speech, as long as what I say agrees with you, I can say it?

There are thousands of laws now on the books in the USA which regulate my freedoms to own firearms. That they are enforced loosely, if at all, is a major problem. You are ignoring the statistics in the locales with the highest rates of violent death like LA, Chicago and Detroit. There's good reason for calling many of their areas "combat zones", even though guns are illegal. I cannot carry my gun there, but the bad guys sure as hell do!

Because more die here due to medical malpractice than by guns, I expect that physician control will be forthcoming. Because more people in this country die each year as a result of the myriad hazards of obesity than by murder, I demand that spoons and forks be controlled. Numerous deaths every year can be directly attributed to automobiles, but no cry for banning cars has yet been heard. I could go on here to the point of ridiculous, but I will leave that to the liberals.


Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Friday, January 11th 2013 @ 9:46 AM

Quote from Cibby on Friday, January 11th 2013 @ 8:26 AM

Now I have to define the definition of "is"? I was of the opinion that reasonable folk understood the difference between military and civilian weapons. Only a retard would consider a fully automatic or explosive type as eligible for ownership by the latter group, as we don't have the need or the training of the former group. Good grief, Charlie Brown! I'll be glad when they find a cure.

So why does a civilian have the need for a 90 or 100 round drum clip? And why an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle that can shoot 4-6 bullets a second?

Quote from Cibby on Friday, January 11th 2013 @ 8:26 AM

If gun control makes sense and works for the island countries of Britain, Australia, and Atlantis, let it work for you. I suggest, however, that you are neither willing nor capable of empathy with my opinions. You neglected to comment on my entire point about the southern border of the USA, which puntuates my last point. Cat got your tongue? Or another liberal application of the freedom of speech, as long as what I say agrees with you, I can say it?

First off why do you feel the need to label people that may not agree with you? I am a gun owner. And no the cat does not have my tongue. Did you not read Father Dave's post and link a while back which showed there was no connection in gun violence to our southern border problems? According to your logic then since we are south of Canada's border they should have a problem also, but they don't. Check this link.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/31/rate_of_gun_homicide/194

Quote from Cibby on Friday, January 11th 2013 @ 8:26 AM

There are thousands of laws now on the books in the USA which regulate my freedoms to own firearms. That they are enforced loosely, if at all, is a major problem. You are ignoring the statistics in the locales with the highest rates of violent death like LA, Chicago and Detroit. There's good reason for calling many of their areas "combat zones", even though guns are illegal. I cannot carry my gun there, but the bad guys sure as hell do!

I have not ignored any statistics. Show me where I have done that? This also is not about banning, (making guns illegal) or not banning. It is about common sense gun regulations which other developed countries have but the U.S. has no common sense. Be part of the solution and click here.

http://americansforresponsiblesolutions.org/

Quote from Cibby on Friday, January 11th 2013 @ 8:26 AM

Because more die here due to medical malpractice than by guns, I expect that physician control will be forthcoming. Because more people in this country die each year as a result of the myriad hazards of obesity than by murder, I demand that spoons and forks be controlled. Numerous deaths every year can be directly attributed to automobiles, but no cry for banning cars has yet been heard. I could go on here to the point of ridiculous, but I will leave that to the liberals.

This argument goes to the ridiculous now. According to your logic the deranged man that stormed a school in China with a knife should have killed just as many if not more than the one that stormed Sandy Hook. But not one Child in China died in that rampage. And again no one is calling for a ban on guns. As far as your automobile example, at one time drivers licenses and regulations were not required in this country. The public did not call for a ban on automobiles when auto-fatalities starting to go through the roof just some common sense requirements such as licensing and common sense regulations such as speed limits, stop signs, crosswalks, etc.

And what did the U.S. do when the public cried out for licensing and regulation of operators of motor vehicles? They used Germany and France as a model. So why not look to other countries whose gun violence is only a fraction of ours to see what they are doing right and how to improve ours? Did you know that more people die in the U.S. at the hands of a gun in 2 years than the total U.S. soldiers that died in Vietnam in 10 years?

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/31/rate_of_gun_homicide/194,10,192,178,91


Douglas Pyeatt
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by dougp on Wednesday, January 16th 2013 @ 4:01 PM

Polization sucks and I believe in our ever shrinking world there is very little room left for its existence. Those who know me best understand that I am happiest when horseback and long for the romance of the Old West. That being said, I would love to have a cattle ranch and run 300 head of mother cows, tending daily to my work as I train good horses in the process. Unfortunately, I do not have the millions that are required to live such a life, nor was I born into a family ranching legacy. So instead I went to college, hired into a law enforcement career and ride on the weekends and my days off, when I have time that is :). My point to all of this is that I had to be reasonable in my expectations. Years ago, when prices and populations were less, I may have been able to afford the necessary land and resources to support a family in the ranching business, but times have certainly changed.

I think that we can all agree that sound judgment, fairness, and sensibility or reasonableness are all very important qualities when it comes to getting along in an overcrowded world and when working to love one another as Christ commanded. The ability to be reasonable is very important indeed and by definition may necessitate compromise.

So before we try to apply this standard to something like the topic of firearms, and the Constitutional right for American citizens to bear them, let's take another look at the statistics. According to the Century Foundation, from 1900 to September 2004 ( 104 years) there were 118 mass shootings in the United States, an average of 1.13 per year.

In September 1994, the Assault Weapon Ban (AWB), as part of the Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act banned the manufacture of certain semi-automatic firearms, as well as certain semi-automatic pistols, rifles, and shotguns. This ban also made certain ammunitions and high capacity magazines illegal.

Following the AWB and between September 1994 and September 2004, there were 15 mass shootings or 1.5 per year. In 1997 alone there were 5 incidents, including the tragedy at Columbine School.

The AWB expired in September 2004 and during the course of the last 8 years there have been 28 mass shooting events, or 3.5 per year. As you can see, post AWB mass shooting incidents have sky rocketed.

At first glance one would look at those statistic, especially post AWB and clearly argue the benefits of gun control. Now we do need to consider the very small sample size of only eight years post AWB, a factor that is important when considering statistical analysis. I would also contend that we need to look at several other factors when making a final decision in regard to this matter.

One in particular is the culture of the US. We are a gun culture, for better or for worse. Thus the reason for sayings like, "You can have my guns when you pry my cold dead fingers from them". As embarassing as that may sound, there are many people who truly believe that. Now add this line of reasoning to the whole Mayan end of the world, doomsday prepper thing that we have going on and I think that people actually begin to panic over all of this endless media hype and Hollywood sensationalism.

Here's another one for you, since Obama was elected in 2008, the FBI has conducted approximately 12.7 million firearms background checks (as required for the purchase of a pistol and other particular firearms from a federal firearms licensed (FFL) dealer.) This is one million more background checks than the year before Obama's election.

In November 2012, Obama's second term election, firearms sales skyrocketed and the FBI recorded a record number of background checks on Black Friday, a whopping 154,873. Please keep in mind that these numbers just reflect the numbers of firearms purchased through FFL's, and do not reflect private sales or purchases from gun shows. And all of this because a democratic president was elected?

Now what about the Columbine tragedy. As noted above, that mass shooting event actually took place during the AWB and was one of the worst on record. Does that mean that the AWB was unsuccessful?

I think that it may also be of importance to critique this media/Hollywood factor that I touched on earlier. Post Columbine shooting there was a media explosion concerning bullying and the media labeled this as the prime reason for the massacre. In fact, the media hype ignited a national debate over this topic and subsequently led to many, if not all states enacting anti-bullying laws that schools must strictly adhere to. I mean afterall, if those boys, errr, murderers would have been bullied less, there is no way that they would have committed such an evil act ... right?

Now on to the Connecticut murders. Adam Lanza, mentally ill and insane right? Why did this mentally ill person have access to his mother's guns?

Keeping all this in mind, I think that we also need to consider current US federal law, specifically Title 18 United States Code Section 922 (18USC922.) This statute forbids convicted felons, drug addicts, mentally ill, illegal aliens, and juveniles from legally owning/possessing firearms. Aside from the juvenile portion of this statute, violations of this statute are punishable as a felony and if convicted by at least five years imprisonment.

My point to all of this is that I do not know if there is one remedy to this horrific problem other than finding a way to join together in compromise and fight the evil at hand. We have to find middle ground. Middle ground is necessary for the sake of our society and the protection of our kids. That being said, I think that it may indeed be reasonalbe to possibly have armed guards posted at schools; for us to possibly legalize the possession/manufacture of assault weapons, high capacity magazines, etc.; for us to require background investigations on the sale of all weapons to include those sold by private parties and at guns shows; for us to strive for our children to be taught in environments where bullying is not tolerated; and for us to take necessary steps to ensure that those suffering from mental illness are unable to have access to firearms.

Sorry for such a long post. I know that there are going to folks that disagree with my ramblings, but either way I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts with you all.


Dave Smith
Group Administrator

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by fatherdave on Wednesday, January 16th 2013 @ 10:58 PM

It's good to hear from you, Dougie! You are the soul of reasonableness! Wink

I'm still hoping you're going to visit us out here sometime soon.

I'd love to visit you, of course, but, as you've made clear, the US is one scary place to be at the moment!

________________________________
Rev. David B. Smith, B.A., B.Th., Dip A.
Parish Priest, Pro Boxer, Social Activist, Father of Four

Sam Madden
Full

Subject: RE: "god" Is a Murderer of Children
Social Justice
posted by SamMadden on Thursday, January 17th 2013 @ 4:38 AM

Douglas,

I totally agree with you on reasonableness. There are reasonable common sense solutions to reduce gun violence, (it will never be totally irradicated).

But we must also not jump to conclusions without knowing most, (if not all) the facts. So here's a few more to add to your repertoire. Regarding the AWB from 1994 to 2004 in the United States there were a number of loopholes in the law. One of which was that any Assault Weapon manufactured prior to 1994 was exempt which left 1.5 million Assault Weapons in circulation here in the States. Another exemption in that law was that any high capacity magazine that was imported was also exempt from that law.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/12/how-nra-and-gun-makers-got-around-last-ban-assault-rifles/60197/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/us/lessons-in-politics-and-fine-print-in-assault-weapons-ban-of-90s.html?ref=michaelluo&_r=0



"god" Is a Murderer of Children